What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by SlowTeg » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:15 am

Hondata wrote:What are your modifications? What happens if you use the stock throttle mapping? Does it do this with a return to stock calibration?
Mods are intake and TP. When I was using the stock throttle mapping it was hitting 100% fine. This all started because I wanted to try and modify the throttle map. Is there something in the calibration that's causing this or a possible bug where the throttle table isn't being updated..?

I haven't tried a return to stock calibration because of the mods and tune. I could certainly try a stock throttle map (seems to be my next course of action), but was curious as to WHY I'm not seeing 100% now? I don't want to willy nilly keep changing things and driving around in hopes to try and figure it out since it takes so much time, and ultimately I'll still be left with the same question. I kept the throttle map relatively linear (I read Hondata's other posts about the throttle map) so I'm not sure why it's stuck at 76% and not hitting 100%?

I guess flashing the car with the stock throttle map would pinpoint that there's a problem somewhere (possibly flashpro bug), or maybe the throttle controller is off and needs to be recalibrated..? I'm only guessing.

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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by Hondata » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:02 pm

It is possible that there are situations where the ECU decides to modify the target throttle plate from the table. In the past the S2000 has mapped directly from the table to the plate, but we did note once that if you make the target well outside the normal bounds the ECU will override the setting (for the example I'm thinking of the table was limited to around 25% maximum and the ECU opened the throttle further than that). I don't think this is the cause in this case, but it could be that there are other situations where some external factor like the VSA is changing what the ECU does with the throttle.
In order to solve your problem we have verified that basic operation of the table - if I look at datalogs from our S2000 the throttle to pedal mapping follows the table as expected (attached picture). So that's why I've suggest you first reset the throttle table to stock and then see what effect that has in order to narrow does the causes. I realize that this is an inconvenience but short of replicating your complete vehicle here it is extremely difficult for us reproduce the exact circumstances you're seeing.
We have taken great care not to alter any part of the throttle control code in the ECU, so I would guess the cause of any problem is not a software bug but more likely the ECU limiting parameters or the VSA stepping in. Yes, it could also be the throttle controller, but I've only ever seen problems where it goes over current from large throttle bodies.
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s2000-throttle.png
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by SlowTeg » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:52 am

Thanks, I appreciate the more "thorough" response. So basically you're saying the unexpected tplate opening is a feature not a bug, gotcha. ;)

On the bright side I reflashed the car with a stock throttle map and I'm back to hitting 100% on the tplate %, so that's good in that it seems limited to the table somehow. Definitely annoying as it's not working as expected, but at least I know there isn't a bug/problem somewhere that I'm overlooking.

The question then becomes what exactly is causing the tplate % to not hit 100% in the "offending" throttle map. I'm going to guess it has to do with the 50-75% range of my map somehow limiting the throttle to not get to 100%. Hopefully increasing these values somewhat will help.

Can you share anything about the OEM throttle map code that's running behind the scenes? This would help identify how I can get some better partial throttle resolution but not cause unintended problems like limiting the tplate to <100%. It'd be helpful if you could share anything. Thanks.

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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by Hondata » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:10 am

I'd term it more like 'behavior as designed by Honda' than a feature. My guess is that it is something similar to the throttle opening at 100% pedal can't be more than double the opening at 40% pedal (this is just an example). There is some rationalization code in the ECU.
We'll keep looking at this and see if we can find anything out.
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by Hondata » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:30 pm

There is an additional table (indexed by vehicle speed) that modifies the throttle pedal value for use as an index for the main throttle table. We'll add that table for the next release.
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by SlowTeg » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:58 am

Hondata wrote:There is an additional table (indexed by vehicle speed) that modifies the throttle pedal value for use as an index for the main throttle table. We'll add that table for the next release.
Very interesting, thanks! Hopefully this can help part throttle resolution when on track for folks.

With some further datalogging and playing around with the throttle table, I've come across something very interesting. Gernby pointed it out to me and it certainly appears that there's a multiplier that affects the throttle table. The last several columns are ineffective and don't appear to do anything. My brute force method of testing and datalogging tells me this certainly looks to be the case. When I had 50% in the 66% column, i would see a max of 75% tplate %. I increased the column to 56.7, and had a max tp % of 86% which is 1.5x the value of 56.7. When the value is 66% or higher in this column, I see the 100% tplate value in the datalogs, which makes sense as it appears there's a 1.5x multiplier.

I just figured I'd chime in with my findings since Gernby never directly reported his findings to Hondata he said. The concern is there might be some resolution lost since the last 4 columns go unused, but I guess interpolation between cells should be able to handle this..? Either way, glad I finally figured out what was going on and curious if you guys noticed this yourself. Either way, it's good to finally figure out what the heck was going on as the table was not working at all as I'd expected.
ThrottlePlate.png
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by Hondata » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:39 am

It is because the index to the throttle table is not throttle pedal; it is a value calculated from a previous table indexed by speed and throttle pedal.
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by SlowTeg » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:02 am

Hondata wrote:It is because the index to the throttle table is not throttle pedal; it is a value calculated from a previous table indexed by speed and throttle pedal.
Based on what I've observed, the "odd" behavior isn't an issue with an index/parameter to the table affecting the ultimate TP %, but rather the table itself also has some multiplier or other factor(s) that affect the final value (tplate %) which results in the last 4 columns going unused.

Are there other tables besides the one you mentioned that affect the throttle? Maybe the throttle controller is what is applying the multiplier..? From some brief googling, it seems like honda only used this particular DBW setup on the S2000 and moved away from it on other iterations in other cars. I'm guessing they did it for good reason and perhaps there are some "issues" with this particular iteration in the s2000.

Just to reiterate, from my observations of the logs, the last 4 columns of the throttle table are completely unused.

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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by Hondata » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:48 pm

This is how the throttle lookup works. A table is used to calculate the index for the main table. For this table the row index is vehicle speed and the column index is throttle pedal. Yes, the pedal index only goes to 90%, but that's how it works - anything over 90% gives full throttle.
tindex.png
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The value from the index table is used as the index to the main throttle table. The values go over 100%, so only the values up to the 100% index are used. For the S2000, the 96% and 108% values are used at full throttle.
tthrottle.png
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Remember the index to this table is not the pedal, but the lookup value from the previous table.
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by SlowTeg » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:29 am

Gotcha, I understood how it worked from your previous explanation and that makes sense. The interesting difference/note however is that how come your throttle table has indexes over 100%, whereas mine (and others) tops out at 100%? Column 11 is 66.7 on my throttle table, but it's 96 on yours. Was the table just incorrectly labeled in previous versions and it's now fixed..? This would certainly explain why the last 4 columns of the throttle table don't appear to be actually used (as gernby pointed out and I've observed).

Regarding the speed/pedal table. That'd be great if you guys could release that and make it editable in the next release. I would really look forward to it as it should help considerably at part throttle when on track. I'm assuming the speed is km/h rather than mph, correct?

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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by Hondata » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:08 am

Both the value and index has been changed for the main throttle table. Yes, the speed values are kph.
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by SlowTeg » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:45 am

Hondata wrote:Both the value and index has been changed for the main throttle table. Yes, the speed values are kph.
Any idea when we'll see the update released for the s2000? I know many people would probably be very interested in this update (they just aren't fully aware of it yet)! Given the scaling of the throttle at 100 kph (~60mph), the throttle resolution goes to hell very quickly > 50% tpedal. Everything from 62% throttle pedal (which translates to 82% TP%) gets scaled up VERY quickly to WOT. It certainly explains why it feels more like an on/off switch.

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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by Hondata » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:31 am

You are aware that interpolation is used? The factory table is linear, so could be replaced with two columns without loosing resolution.
Release probably will be next week.
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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by SlowTeg » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:44 am

Hondata wrote:You are aware that interpolation is used? The factory table is linear, so could be replaced with two columns without loosing resolution.
Release probably will be next week.
Great to hear on the quick release!

Yes I'm aware interpolation is used, but the non-linear nature of the throttle pedal as the speed increases results in worse resolution for your right foot. I'm not the first to notice the poor throttle "feel" of the DBW s2000's on track (had a few track goers tell me how they hate the feel), but maybe I'm the first to really try and see if it can be "fixed." I'm not sure why honda decided to have the throttle table adjusted with speed the way it is. It's one thing to make it a little less sensitive at lower speeds, and another thing to open the throttle plate more than the selected throttle (with your right foot).. Strange..

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Re: What exactly does tplate % represent in datalogs?

Post by R-12914 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:13 am

Is this release only for the S2000 or also for another Honda-Cars?
2008 Honda Civic TypeR FN2
Rotrex C30-94 supercharged with relocated IAT
Powered by ASNU 092/FP330E fuel pump & ASNU 090/750cc fuel injectors
------------------------
ECU: 37820-RSP-E03
Flashpro: FP-SI-INT-21153
Software: 3.4.4.0
Firmware: 167

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