Torque Table Limit Vs Dyno CVT Correlation

[hifi]

Hi Hondata folks.

Just a simple clarification:

How well does the Hondata torque table limit correlate with actual dyno torque verification on the CVT only? (Allowing that there are some different drive line challenges with CVT and Dyno in general).

Do you find it fairly reliable between multiple runs? (i.e. I've seen Hondata post +/- 5nm if I am interpreting that correctly.)
I'm assuming this is more reliable with the paddle shift models?

Also, if any members here can share their dyno correlations, that would be great. I'm wanting to get this verified myself, but more data points are typically a good thing!

Thank you and best regards,

Ryan

[arnoldod]

Here's the latest dyno sheet.


This is torque table from my calibration:


The way the entire ECU logic and wastegate calculate torque is different vs. dyno. We can set TCMPR very high, 2.7 bar, for example, and the torque limiter will work in conjunction to limit BP, BP CMD, TPedal, and ignition.

[hifi]

Hi arnoldod!

Thanks, your dyno vs torque table settings would then tell us that the torque table really isn't limiting anything. (Especially if the screenshot of the torque table you have set above with a max 250nm was used for each of the dyno runs above).

I would like confirmation from @Hondata here to clarify what the torque table actually does. (Or if arnoldod's dyno is strictly because the other parameters are overriding the torque table some how?)

Thank you!

Ryan

[Hondata]

The torque table limits the ECUs calculated torque. In our tests we would it to be fairly accurate (within 5 nM).

[arnoldod]

Dyno reads differently. Max torque from my dyno plot reads 303 Nm so this is within margin of error. My wild guess probably the torque now measures around 315 Nm at 4000 RPM.

[gcapraz]

Hi arnoldod!

Thanks, your dyno vs torque table settings would then tell us that the torque table really isn't limiting anything. (Especially if the screenshot of the torque table you have set above with a max 250nm was used for each of the dyno runs above).

I would like confirmation from @Hondata here to clarify what the torque table actually does. (Or if arnoldod's dyno is strictly because the other parameters are overriding the torque table some how?)

Thank you!

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

pls for make sure the torque limiting table work with in this way.
set all limits to 180 nm. then make 1 run in any gear for example 3. gear from 2000 rpm to the end. you will see the map pressure is changing but not reach to the target even your target pressure is so high. torque control works so fine with the engine.

pls check it and share with us your experiment about it.

[hifi]

The torque table limits the ECUs calculated torque. In our tests we would it to be fairly accurate (within 5 nM).

Much appreciated. That is the information I was looking for. So I'm good with this solution to help protect the drive train (CVT in particular). I would have to also make the assumption then that the full torque achieved for the +6 CVT tune was made with essentially no limit on that table, which I'm also fine with. This ensures the user will accept that risk to achieve said torque that is capable, but limited under the default tune.

I appreciate the flexibility given in the Hondata tuning tables for those reasons.

Thank you!

Ryan

[hifi]

Dyno reads differently. Max torque from my dyno plot reads 303 Nm so this is within margin of error. My wild guess probably the torque now measures around 315 Nm at 4000 RPM.

Hi arnoldod,

Based upon the reply from Hondata, this may confirm my previous assumptions that (if in fact) your torque limit is set to 250nm max and you are achieving much higher torque output on the dyno you have either 1) managed to override the torque limit table with other settings in the tune, even if the torque table is set appropriately or 2) somehow your CVT results are inconsistent (if that is the case, do you have paddle shifters to lock into say, "S3" or "D3" and have your runs been based upon a more "static" fake "gear"?)

Thanks and best regards,

Ryan

[hifi]

Hi Ryan,

pls for make sure the torque limiting table work with in this way.
set all limits to 180 nm. then make 1 run in any gear for example 3. gear from 2000 rpm to the end. you will see the map pressure is changing but not reach to the target even your target pressure is so high. torque control works so fine with the engine.

pls check it and share with us your experiment about it.

Hi gcapraz!

Thank you for your comments/suggestions. These were not in any fixed "CVT" gear, however I can see the difference in the datalogs in terms of max MAP/BP under the same driving conditions/temps.

The difference between max BP (psi) was 18.4 with the torque limit set to 270nm and lifting to 280nm I saw that value increase up to 20.7, you can see the MAP, TPlate and other parameters here too. This definitely isn't exact science, but under several of each runs, you can tell lowering the Tqlimit will also limit the boost parameters.

Running with 270nm limit.jpg (46.07 KiB) Viewed 6239 times

Running with 280nm limit.jpg (49.92 KiB) Viewed 6239 times

Thanks and regards,

Ryan

[hifi]

*I should note I am running 100% 93 octane here as well. Knock control is flat around 54% until the IAT gets too hot, then you see it get up to 70%

[arnoldod]

Hi arnoldod,

Based upon the reply from Hondata, this may confirm my previous assumptions that (if in fact) your torque limit is set to 250nm max and you are achieving much higher torque output on the dyno you have either 1) managed to override the torque limit table with other settings in the tune, even if the torque table is set appropriately or 2) somehow your CVT results are inconsistent (if that is the case, do you have paddle shifters to lock into say, "S3" or "D3" and have your runs been based upon a more "static" fake "gear"?)

Thanks and best regards,

Ryan

Good observation. I do have paddle shift. Gear was set at the 4th gear for the dyno run.

[gcapraz]

Hi Ryan,

pls for make sure the torque limiting table work with in this way.
set all limits to 180 nm. then make 1 run in any gear for example 3. gear from 2000 rpm to the end. you will see the map pressure is changing but not reach to the target even your target pressure is so high. torque control works so fine with the engine.

pls check it and share with us your experiment about it.

Hi gcapraz!

Thank you for your comments/suggestions. These were not in any fixed "CVT" gear, however I can see the difference in the datalogs in terms of max MAP/BP under the same driving conditions/temps.

The difference between max BP (psi) was 18.4 with the torque limit set to 270nm and lifting to 280nm I saw that value increase up to 20.7, you can see the MAP, TPlate and other parameters here too. This definitely isn't exact science, but under several of each runs, you can tell lowering the Tqlimit will also limit the boost parameters.

Running with 270nm limit.jpg
Running with 280nm limit.jpg

Thanks and regards,

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

Its good to make a comparison but you need to see at the similar same rpm datalogs. because turbo can create different torque in different rpm. pls check it again.

[arnoldod]

Another thing to note is Torque limit also limit ignition timing in the background according to Hondata online help.

[hifi]

Hi Ryan,

pls for make sure the torque limiting table work with in this way.
set all limits to 180 nm. then make 1 run in any gear for example 3. gear from 2000 rpm to the end. you will see the map pressure is changing but not reach to the target even your target pressure is so high. torque control works so fine with the engine.

pls check it and share with us your experiment about it.

Hi Ryan,

Its good to make a comparison but you need to see at the similar same rpm datalogs. because turbo can create different torque in different rpm. pls check it again.

Hey gcapraz, this is as close as I can get in RPM. I've added IGN as well, also note the ECT and IAT are very close, that is important as well.

This is at 270nm TqLim

270nm.jpg (52.77 KiB) Viewed 5906 times

This is at 280nm TqLim

280nm.jpg (52.46 KiB) Viewed 5906 times

Cheers!

Ryan

[gcapraz]

Hi Ryan,

Its good to make a comparison but you need to see at the similar same rpm datalogs. because turbo can create different torque in different rpm. pls check it again.

Hey gcapraz, this is as close as I can get in RPM. I've added IGN as well, also note the ECT and IAT are very close, that is important as well.
270nm.jpg280nm.jpg

Cheers!

Ryan

HI, 270-280 nm torq differences are so small number so there is no big differences as you can see.
it works fine.