Air temp ignition compensation

2012+ US/Canadian Civic Si / 2013+ ILX
VitViper
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Air temp ignition compensation

Post by VitViper »

Please add the ability to adjust ignition timing for IAT from the main ignition tables like we have in the 8th gens -- the 9th's have some silly stupid intakes and we are seeing IAT's as high as 140*. Not to mention more and more of them are getting F/I.

I asked for this once already... here it is again. It is a crucial feature that is missing.

the dude
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Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by the dude »

Yes please! Before more people start complaining about paying $6-700 for a tuning solution that's not what it is for the 06-11s...

VitViper
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Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by VitViper »

Bump, we need to see this on the 9th gen's please. Getting more and more F/I customers and this feature is being missed on this generation Si.

GSquared
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Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:41 am

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by GSquared »

Bump for Hondata response on this. :)

dghboy
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Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:04 am

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by dghboy »

Please any response? Is it being worked?

VitViper
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Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by VitViper »

Come on guys, at least a response of "we're working on it" would be nice -- this is a very critical feature that is missing for this platform.

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Spunkster
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Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by Spunkster »

Derek has been out of the office for 2 weeks and will not return until Monday. I cannot answer for him.

GSquared
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Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by GSquared »

Spunkster wrote:Derek has been out of the office for 2 weeks and will not return until Monday. I cannot answer for him.
Hopefully with good news!

dghboy
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Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:04 am

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by dghboy »

Anything yet?

Six_speed_demon
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Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by Six_speed_demon »

Ok this is getting a little old....... What's the word on this being added to flashpro! This really really really holding me and a lot if ppl up from going boost on their 9ths. This is one of most important tuning tools for a boosted car. Please tell me I'm just late and it's been added already! It's been almost 3 weeks with no answer on this.

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Hondata
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Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by Hondata »

This is not something which we can add immediately. The 2012 is not the same ECU / processor as the 2006, and thus the same changes cannot necessarily be made.
Be aware that there is IAT compensation for both fuel & ignition in the 2012, which works well as long as you take the time to get the knock ignition limits correct.
Hondata

Six_speed_demon
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:56 pm

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by Six_speed_demon »

Hondata wrote:This is not something which we can add immediately. The 2012 is not the same ECU / processor as the 2006, and thus the same changes cannot necessarily be made.
Be aware that there is IAT compensation for both fuel & ignition in the 2012, which works well as long as you take the time to get the knock ignition limits correct.
Ok does this mean that we will not have the same capabilities as the 8thgen when it comes to IATs comp tables or even the being able to run completely off the iat sensor. I'm going for a big blower setup and without being able to see what temps are going into the motor and being able to retard or compensate for a increase in heat or decrease heat is going to kill the power and how aggressive tuners can go with the tune. I completely understand it takes time to do these things and I would like it to be done right but I just thought it would have been added by now. If your saying we won't get the same control as the 8thgen then if mine as well not even boost it until it's capable.

I'm just looking for time frame so I can plan according.

Also that evap thing is worring me as well. Seems like ever 9thgen with flashpro is beginning to complain about that specially the F/I guys.

Six_speed_demon
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:56 pm

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by Six_speed_demon »

Bump......for a response on this.

nurv2600
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:47 pm

Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by nurv2600 »

I'm unsure what you mean by having the knock ignition limits "correctly set". I've got a VitTune, so I know they're done right, but it seems the tune just follows the ignition tables directly, COMPLETELY ignoring IAT and ECT compensation tables.

See my posted screen shots; the engine is knocking like a bastard, and according to the ECT and IAT tables, put together, it should be retarding at least 5 degrees! And this is on a NA engine...I was thinking of going with the CT-e S/C kit, but this behavior is a little scary. In the cold I'm not getting all the power I could, and in the hot I still knock a bit, even with my tune overly-tamed (the tune you see below is pre-taming). If there's a way to get these "dummy" tables to work, I'd love to know!

EDIT: Removed screenshot since I don't wanna be giving away a good VitTune for free! But, imagine 100F+ IATs, and that IAT comp table indicating 3-4 deg retard, and the ECT comp table asking for 2 deg retard, yet ignition follows the table EXACTLY, without any retard at all.
Last edited by nurv2600 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VitViper
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Re: Air temp ignition compensation

Post by VitViper »

nurv2600 wrote:I'm unsure what you mean by having the knock ignition limits "correctly set". I've got a VitTune, so I know they're done right, but it seems the tune just follows the ignition tables directly, COMPLETELY ignoring IAT and ECT compensation tables.
You shouldn't be using that map, the timing is beyond MBT for pump gas in areas. Use the final one that actually has the timing at MBT and it won't knock.
Hondata wrote:This is not something which we can add immediately. The 2012 is not the same ECU / processor as the 2006, and thus the same changes cannot necessarily be made.
Be aware that there is IAT compensation for both fuel & ignition in the 2012, which works well as long as you take the time to get the knock ignition limits correct.
Really? This is just more friction, we got similar friction on the 8th gens until we yelled and screamed. I know you understand the limitations of using the KIL tables -- I've already done K24Z's with aftermarket internals and lots and lots of S/C ones -- they still generate plenty of false knock (granted the S/C is much better than on the 8th, it's still there). And I also know what happens to those "finely" tuned KIL tables once the ECU decides you're on 87 octane fuel or worse and K.Control goes off the charts.

Running the ECT/IAT comps against the KIL tables is very very bad on turbo & S/C setups.

Frankly, we know what fuel we are tuning the car on -- I don't want interference from the ECU. When I know what fuel I'm tuning on I also know what compensations to tune in against the MBT tables. I have a 350ft lb of tq to the tires stock motor 8th gen on 92 octane and it stays together with 140* IAT's on extended pulls with no mucking about from the ECU. I wouldn't trust the KIL logic as far as I could throw it on my car, it's garbage.


And to add to this -- I cannot effectively use a relocated IAT post blower on the Comptech setups. I have my 9th gen with the CT-e S/C setup and my aftercooler setup, and I can add ZERO failsafes to the map because of the friction you are giving us on this feature. Or am I supposed to depend on the KIL logic to respond and pull timing if the aftercooler/bosch pump quit on me and the IAT's skyrocket past normal operating temps? This is a risk that can be preemptively mitigated with an IAT comp that runs against my MBT tables. You're effectively telling me it's OK for my 360whp stock motor 9th gen to KNOCK just so the ECU can detect it and maybe react to it? Where as I can tune it to never happen in the off chance the Bosch pump quits on me.

Locked