What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda adj

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ajpturbopittsburgh
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What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda adj

Post by ajpturbopittsburgh »

My high WOT lambda adjustment is set to 11.47 a/f for column 10 which is about .2 psi.

I wanted to target between 12-12.5 a/f in this column but I thought that when you exceed the the values in the columns the software just uses the last values. Like when you rev higher than what's in the rpm tables for ignition you will just run the last timing value that's in the table.

So if I set the WOT lambda adj high to 12.5 in column 10, what happens when I get to 10 psi of boost? Will the ECU target 12.5 a/f?

When I do 4th gear pulls from 2000 rpms the fueling is fine. But when I try 6th gear and go WOT I never really build boost from my 6162 precision turbo and at 0 psi my a/f ratios start to creep down to 11.0. And if I try to lean out the fuel tables and do a 4th gear WOT pull it stays a little too lean.

SO on the long WOT pulls in high gears at low rpm's it goes rich

I'm afraid if I set the WOT lambda adj High to a leaner a/f in column 10, which is right at boost it will try to maintain that when I'm well into boost
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Street tune up to 19.5 psi rev. 1 fore boost control - Copy (2).fpcal
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Hondata
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by Hondata »

There's some confusion in your post between WOT compensation and target lambda.

The WOT lambda adjustment tables are not a target lambda. They adjust the fuel at WOT based on the fuel tables representing stoichiometric. Furthermore, setting them above 13.5:1 causes problems and should be avoided.

There are target lambda tables for closed loop under 'closed loop'. These are probably not the tables you are looking for.

I'd start by looking at what part of the fuel tables are used in 4th gear vs 6th gear and compare the datalogs.
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ajpturbopittsburgh
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by ajpturbopittsburgh »

Ok, but if the WOT lambda adj table shows 11.5 in column 10 is it not trying to target 11.5 afr?

I just want to make sure that if I set that column to 12.5 afr it wont try to target 12.5 afr at 10psi like it does at .2 psi because the columns only go to 10 which is about .2 psi

I read in another thread that the WOT lambda adj tables are useless in a MAP tune, which is what I'm using
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by Hondata »

The WOT lambda adjustment tables are not target lambda tables.
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angelf1974
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by angelf1974 »

I don´t understand. In FlashPro Manager help you say this: " the WOT tables specify the target lambda"
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Is this correct for a CL9?
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And, which is better, use MAP to determinate WOT or not use it?
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by Hondata »

While the help file is correct it is misleading in this respect. Honda uses the WOT compensation tables to change the WOT lambda to their WOT target. The ECU does not target that lambda however.
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ajpturbopittsburgh
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by ajpturbopittsburgh »

Sorry it's still hard for me to follow when you say it like that.

So what is their target WOT then?
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by Hondata »

There is no open loop fuel target. Honda tunes the fuel tables to give stoichiometric, and then uses the WOT compensation to give their desired WOT lambda, but there is no target.
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ajpturbopittsburgh
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by ajpturbopittsburgh »

I think I understand but last question...

Column 10 is .2 psi and you can't edit that. What will that column do to my fueling at 10 psi?

I suspect nothing since my tune is MAP based and I found in another thread that these tables are useless in a MAP tune

All I'm looking to find out is that if I set column 10 to 12.5 a/f it won't attempt to trim fuel when I'm at 10 psi when I'm normally running about 11.5 a/f.
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by Hondata »

The last column is used under boost.

The WOT compensation tables are used in race calibrations.
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ajpturbopittsburgh
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by ajpturbopittsburgh »

**Yes, just change column 10 for all boost values. Actually, for MAP calibrations you don't need to change the WOT lambda table at all, it's just in there so that you can see why the AF goes rich suddenly as you switch from closed to open loop.

Yes, open loop does not use any o2 feedback. The WOT lambda table is just an artifact from how Honda tunes the fuel tables (all tuned for stoichiometric). This is also how AFM based vehicles enrichen the mixture at WOT too.**


Hondata, above is a post that YOU MADE from 2009 on this topic. I copied it and pasted

So which is it? WOT adjustment tables are used in race cals or not?

And you didn't answer what I was asking before.....You say use column 10 for boost but column 10 would be where you are when you are WOT in an N/A car..And from what I've read you want between 12.5-12.8 a/f ratio when at WOT in an N/A car.

So that's why I want to know if I set column 10 to 12.5 a/f will it try to make adjustments at WOT when I'm boosting to 12.5(which would be too lean for boost) but if I set it to 11.5 that's too rich for WOT when just about at boost (.2 psi or same as WOT for N/A)
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by Hondata »

The quoted post from 2009 is correct. WOT adjustment tables are used in all calibrations (I can't see the reference where you don't think they are used in race calibrations), but there is no real need to use them unless tuning an AFM vehicle without MAP tables.

What exact question is unanswered? Column 10 is used at all manifold pressures above 97 kPa. NA, boost, whatever, column 10 is used.

Remember that the WOT adjustment is not a target. Just because column 10 is 12.5:1 does not mean that the AF will be 12.5:1.
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ajpturbopittsburgh
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by ajpturbopittsburgh »

I thought when you said" MAP calibrations don't use the WOT tables at all" meant that those tables aren't actually active in map tunes.

OK, so I understand now when you say the values in the targets but how is the ECU making compensations if it doesn't have a target? Since the table values are actual A/F ratios and not percentage adjustments.

Please answer this for me. If I set column 10 to 11.5 A/F ratio how will I ever be able to get my A/F ratio to 12.5?

I want the car to run around 12.5 A/F ratio at .2 psi and 11.5 A/F ratio at 10 psi but I don't see this can happen if I set column 10 to 11.5 A/F

The ECU will keep adding fuel. But I feel I have to set column 10 to 11.5 A/F because if I set it to 12.5 A/F it will keep trimming fuel when I'm at 10 pounds of boost.

I don't see how I can be anymore clear with this.

You say use column 10 for all boost levels but there is a difference between .2 psi and 10 psi and column 10 is .2 psi

And it still confuses me that you said previously that the open loop doesn't use any feed back from the O2 sensors so when I'm WOT and in open loop how can these tables be active?
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by Hondata »

I thought when you said" MAP calibrations don't use the WOT tables at all" meant that those tables aren't actually active in map tunes.
I do not believe that I have said that.
OK, so I understand now when you say the values in the targets but how is the ECU making compensations if it doesn't have a target? Since the table values are actual A/F ratios and not percentage adjustments.
The table values are adjustments from assumed stoichiometric tuning. They are not targets.
Please answer this for me. If I set column 10 to 11.5 A/F ratio how will I ever be able to get my A/F ratio to 12.5?
They are not targets. The ECU does not care what the actual lambda is, so you can tune to 10:1, 20:1 or whatever.
I want the car to run around 12.5 A/F ratio at .2 psi and 11.5 A/F ratio at 10 psi but I don't see this can happen if I set column 10 to 11.5 A/F
See above.
The ECU will keep adding fuel. But I feel I have to set column 10 to 11.5 A/F because if I set it to 12.5 A/F it will keep trimming fuel when I'm at 10 pounds of boost.
See above.
And it still confuses me that you said previously that the open loop doesn't use any feed back from the O2 sensors so when I'm WOT and in open loop how can these tables be active?
See above.
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w00t692
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Re: What values are targeted after column 10 for WOT lambda

Post by w00t692 »

He's telling you.


Do a datalog, check your afr, adjust the afr's in the "WOT adjustment Lambda" tables by the percentage that you need to change your fuel (in whatever direction you need to go for what fueling you're targeting).

that's how it works. The numbers are not your targeted afr's.
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