Negative ignition during startup

FlashPro questions & answers specific to the 2006-2011 Americas Civic Si
mucter
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 11:03 am
Contact:

Negative ignition during startup

Post by mucter »

Ever since I installed my ID1000 injectors, I've had this issue with startups. Most of the time, I won't get any positive ignition during cranking and sometimes it even shows negative ignition values.

I've seen as much as -10 ignition while cranking.

When this happens, the car starts hard and / or cranks for a long time before firing. Occasionally I can hear the timing chain slapping from the low oil pressure when the car fires and bogs at 400rpm and then slowly climbs up.

I have an old log with the -10 ignition happening, but it's not applicable to my current calibration. I'm attaching a log from tonight taken using the current calibration running on my car. It shows -4 ignition during cranking.
Attachments
datalog0007.fpdl
(50.41 KiB) Downloaded 256 times
v170.fpcal
(16.15 KiB) Downloaded 256 times
soxfan143
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: lynnfield MA

Post by soxfan143 »

I am also having this issue. Here is a startup with -11 ignition while cranking. The car starts awful and cranks forever. This is not the exact cal I made the log with but all the startup values are identical. The current cal I posted only has changes made to boost fuel and timing and boost control values. If you need a more current log for this I'll have one tomorrow after work.
Attachments
crap startup.fpdl
(12.71 KiB) Downloaded 270 times
soxfan FR GT28 V66.fpcal
(19.25 KiB) Downloaded 255 times
User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 10434
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Post by Hondata »

Stock behaviour is to use -10 degrees when cranking if the coolant temperature is above about 175 degrees. Thus it is not possible to tell if the ignition timing is causing the issue, or if it is some other factor (vapor lock etc) related to the coolant temperature.

I'll add the cranking ignition timing table to a beta for you to test shortly.

The injector dead times look good for the ID1000s (we found 1.20ms @ 14V in our testing), but why the flow of 1265cc? This would make it 25% leaner when cranking.
Hondata
mucter
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 11:03 am
Contact:

Post by mucter »

We are running 70psi base pressure at the fuel rail, as measured by your fuel pressure tester (Doug sent it to me a while back). At 70psi, the datasheet for the ID1000's claims that they flow 1265cc.

I realize that ID's testing procedures are not inline with the rest of the industry... and that this can have an effect on the math used for scaling. I've experimented with 3 different scaling settings at this fuel pressure. The car has seemed to run the best at this setting, though I may re-approach this topic and try some other settings if I have to.

Thanks for your timely response.
User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 10434
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Post by Hondata »

Ok, it should be ok as you've put in 70 psi for the injector test pressure.
Hondata
locash
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by locash »

I am having the same issue with a turbocharged K20Z3 with ID1000's and Flashpro.. Initial startup is difficult, and the only other thing this car has apart from the others is a 06+ TSX throttle body.. I was initially thinking it was a throttle body related issue, but after reading this thread, it may not be.. Time to check more things like cranking voltage, etc..
Locash Racing, LLC
Hondata Sales and Tuning
Dynapack 4000 2wd Dyno
In-Shop CNC Machining and Product Manufacturing
locash
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by locash »

Soxfan, are you running a higher base pressure as well?
Locash Racing, LLC
Hondata Sales and Tuning
Dynapack 4000 2wd Dyno
In-Shop CNC Machining and Product Manufacturing
locash
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by locash »

I've pretty much resolved the issue with the car I was dealing with by adding a ton of fuel to the cranking fuel table. In other Hondata software, if you rescale the injector size, it normally works well, but something isnt working right here..
Locash Racing, LLC
Hondata Sales and Tuning
Dynapack 4000 2wd Dyno
In-Shop CNC Machining and Product Manufacturing
soxfan143
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: lynnfield MA

Post by soxfan143 »

locash wrote:Soxfan, are you running a higher base pressure as well?
Yes. 70psi base pressure. I also think something is up with the scaler. I think it's a flow rating issue combined with the latency being off at that flow rating.

how much fuel did you actually add and at what coolant temp?
locash
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by locash »

Temp? I was referring to the Calibration > Fuel > Cranking Fuel table. If I remember correctly, I added at least 50% fuel to the table..
Locash Racing, LLC
Hondata Sales and Tuning
Dynapack 4000 2wd Dyno
In-Shop CNC Machining and Product Manufacturing
soxfan143
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: lynnfield MA

Post by soxfan143 »

locash wrote:Temp? I was referring to the Calibration > Fuel > Cranking Fuel table. If I remember correctly, I added at least 50% fuel to the table..
I see, So you didn't use the coolant temp cranking table? Just the overall cranking table. K. So I'll try adding a bunch there as well and see what happens. The thing is I'm not having any cold start issues just hot start after it sits for like 20 minutes. I'm starting to lean towards the scaler though. I think ID overrates their flow ratings.
locash
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by locash »

ID rates their flow ratings on the actual flow of fuel, not the flow of a test fluid, so their flow ratings are different than that of other injector manufacturers. This isnt an issue with the other Hondata software though, so I dont feel it plays a major part in this issue.
Locash Racing, LLC
Hondata Sales and Tuning
Dynapack 4000 2wd Dyno
In-Shop CNC Machining and Product Manufacturing
User avatar
Hondata
Site Admin
Posts: 10434
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:13 pm
Location: Torrance, CA
Contact:

Post by Hondata »

We've found that we need a 840cc flow rate for ID1000s.
Hondata
locash
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by locash »

At what fuel pressure? Obviously, the flow is different at higher/lower fuel pressures..
Locash Racing, LLC
Hondata Sales and Tuning
Dynapack 4000 2wd Dyno
In-Shop CNC Machining and Product Manufacturing
VitViper
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Post by VitViper »

Probably 3 bar.
Post Reply