understanding injector setup page

K-Series Programmable ECU installation questions / support issues
garz
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Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:12 pm

understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

i am comparing different Kals for my engine and came across something i am hoping you can clarify

the engine is a K20A supercharged - but its really a general question about the injector setup
my MAP/Kal - injector setup page looks like this
310cc.JPG
310cc.JPG (31.86 KiB) Viewed 1289 times
another map from a friends car that is identical spec to mine
(same engine, supercharger, cams, injectors, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator)
has an injector setup page that looks like this
630cc.JPG
630cc.JPG (30.52 KiB) Viewed 1289 times
so the same except for his injectors are listed as 630cc

but in the fuel tables - his kal seems to have values around 4000 at WOT whereas mine are around half that at 2000
both cars actually have siemens 630cc deka injectors

just trying to work out what's going on - since they both have the same physical injectors - how come the values in the fuel tables are so different?
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Spunkster
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by Spunkster »

It sounds like his calibration has been setup correctly and your has not.
garz
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

thanks for the prompt reply - but can you elaborate a little ?

both cars run fine and make expected power - so they are both acceptable in terms of function

why does my injector duration show half that of the same engine with apparently 2x the injector capacity ( generally you would expect the opposite )
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Spunkster
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by Spunkster »

because the tuning was all done in the fuel tables and no compensations was made to the fuel trims based on injector size.
garz
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

great - thanks - but the thing i am not following is:

if one map says the injector is 630cc and opens it for 4000 at WOT
and another map for the same setup says 310cc and opens it for 2000 -

how is it the smaller injector open for half the time is able to flow enough fuel

or put another way as far as i can see in the injector setup
there is only the volume rating in cc and the deadtime settings ( which as above are identical in the two Kals)

so is there somewhere else in the kal settings that is telling the ECU it has a much bigger injector attached than the 310cc it says in the injector setup page

i do appreciate the support!
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Spunkster
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by Spunkster »

The calculation you are seeing is based on the numbers in the fuel table and since the injectors have the wrong size set, the fuel tables have the wrong numbers in them.
garz
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

yes - thanks - but the bit i am struggling with is why the fuel numbers in the fuel tables for the smaller injector HALF those of the larger injector - as opposed to TWICE those of the larger injector ( 630cc is approx 2x the size of 310cc so would expect the 310cc fuel table numbers to be 2x larger than the 630cc - for approx same total fuel flow )
garz
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Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:12 pm

Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

do you get my question ?

the 310cc injectors have opening time number in the fuel table of around half that of the 630cc injectors - but half the size of injector open for half the time would deliver only 1/4 of the fuel - yet the engine runs fine - so this cannot be right - and in reality both maps are delivering about the same amount of fuel.

in fact a 310cc injector would have to be opened for around 2x a long as a 630cc injector for the same fuel flow - but this is not what we are seeing in the fuel tables - and instead something very counter intuitive is going on.

so could you clarify how kmanger decides the scaling for the fuel table numbers - as based on the above it cannot only be on the injector CC box
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Spunkster
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by Spunkster »

The calibration was not set up correctly by whoever tuned it. You should take this up with them as that is the root cause of the issue you are describing.
garz
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

thanks again - actually i don't have an issue with the tune - the car is working fine - has been on this kal for 5 years or more now - has as much power as any other of this spec and has not detonated yet. so its works fine.

the issue i am trying to understand is how hondata works so i can use it in the future as i make changes etc - i cant ask a mapper that without paying for their time as that's what they sell - whereas i have already paid for your product so was hoping for some simple support with how it works.

i feel like you understand my question but are skirting round the question rather than just answering it

i am not knocking the product - i think its excellent - but as with anything as sophisticated as this there will be questions - and i just want to understand how it works.
this should be a good thing - as the more people who understand the product properly the more people will use it properly and have good results - and the better that is for hondata - surely

so can you help me understand how inserting a smaller number in the injector size box results in a smaller number in the fuel tables cells - not larger as one would expect. its a counter intuitive behaviour so i am sure will have confused plenty of users - not just me so would be good to clear up.
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Spunkster
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by Spunkster »

The overall fuel trims have probably been improperly adjusted to try to get it to run correctly.

You want answers as to why it reads strange, but since the calibration was not setup correctly we are beating a dead horse.

You have seen a properly setup calibration giving correct readings, so the answer is to setup the calibration correctly if you want it to read correctly. Compare your calibration settings to the one that reads correctly and you can see exactly what is different.
garz
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

thanks again

here are the fuel trims tabs side by side.
fuel trims compared.JPG
fuel trims compared.JPG (164.26 KiB) Viewed 1274 times
as you can see - apart from 3% on cylinder 2 - they are the same

i think you summed up my question best in your last sentence - perhaps i should have phrased it like that earlier

ie where in the kal settings is the setting that is causing the injector duration numbers in the fuel table to be lower than the other map with the same physical injectors

i have looked
- the only difference i can see is in the injector CC number - but that should make the duration numbers need to be 2x higher - not 2x lower as in the actual kal
- its not in the overall trims - as above - they are the same

is there anywhere else in the kmanager tabs i should look that could do this ? -
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Hondata
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by Hondata »

Please post both calibrations if you wish us to look at this. The fuel tables may have been scaled.
Hondata
garz
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by garz »

thanks Hondata

both kals attached
mine
my current map k20a sc cc.kal
(127.25 KiB) Downloaded 73 times
other
FZs map k20a sc cc.kal
(146.04 KiB) Downloaded 78 times
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Hondata
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Re: understanding injector setup page

Post by Hondata »

For the calibration listed as 310cc injectors the fuel table values have been increased (roughly doubled). For more information you would have to ask each tuner why they did it that way.
Hondata
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